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What hot water system works best with hard water

  • 1.  What hot water system works best with hard water

    Posted 02-04-2019 06:23
    Edited by Curt Harrington 02-04-2019 06:25

    Something that I need to know. My water is liquid rocks with some water mixed in! I have used a number of treatment ideas. With the exception of creating a magnetic field around your pipe they all do work to some degree of success. Question. What heater works best with my kind of water?
    Has anyone discovered a heater that can deal with this? I can not believe I need yet another water heating system! Well I do.


    Curt Harrington
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  • 2.  RE: What hot water system works best with hard water

    Posted 02-04-2019 07:26
    Curt,

    What kind of systems have you used so far that have not performed well?

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    Larry Adamski
    Muskegon Laundromat
    Spring Lake MI
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  • 3.  RE: What hot water system works best with hard water

    Posted 02-04-2019 08:11
    Curt,

    We have always had a water softener ... not just because of soap & detergent savings but because we believe we gained enough by way of making sure that our domestic hot water heating vessels would not need deliming.   100% of our car n dog wash water is softened.  Just the heated water in our laundromat is softened.  Our Fleck softener system has held up very well  pretty much trouble free for over 12 years now so I am confident that it is more than paying for itself ... as a preventative measure.  How many grains of hardness is your city's water?  Ours is 7.1 grains per gallon based on our city's water department 2017 water profile report (most current available).

    Just my opinion ... but I think the fear oversudsing is overblown.  But then I may have been spoiled by my Wasco Gen4 hardmounts never having an oversudsing problem.

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    Michael Walsh www.kingkoin.com
    Store Owner/ Employee
    King Koin Laundry, Car n Dog Wash
    Bismarck ND
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  • 4.  RE: What hot water system works best with hard water

    Posted 02-04-2019 08:21
    Edited by Michael Walsh 02-04-2019 08:23

    Curt,

    Oops ... to your specific question:

    About which water heater fairing better?  We found that having closed loop boiler water heating the water indirectly from heat exchangers to have no liming problems ... whereas even with softening our previous AO Smith Burkay units with just domestic & not any closed loop boiler water to be much worse for liming problems.  I personally ... based on this experience ... would avoid units that have the actual fire combustion directly going to a coil that has domestic instead of boiler water going through that specific coil or heat exchanger.



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    Michael Walsh www.kingkoin.com
    Store Owner/ Employee
    King Koin Laundry, Car n Dog Wash
    Bismarck ND
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  • 5.  RE: What hot water system works best with hard water

    Posted 02-04-2019 09:10
    Edited by Larry Adamski 02-04-2019 13:37
    Curt,

    Michael is right, an indirect fire boiler greatly reduces the opportunity for lime buildup on the heat exchanger.   I know of only 1 laundromat that used this type boiler.  It was HUGE by today's standards.  That was so long ago that I cannot even recall the brand name.

    As Michael said, the gas flame heats a closed loop of boiler water.  This water could be distilled water but even if it's just city water; it only has a limited amount of minerals in it and once those deposit out there are non left to lime up the heat exchanger.   This hot boiler water circulates through a tank section and heats the city water in the tank for your washers.  Get it?

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    Larry Adamski
    Muskegon Laundromat
    Spring Lake MI
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  • 6.  RE: What hot water system works best with hard water

    Posted 02-04-2019 13:20
    Edited by Curt Harrington 02-04-2019 13:21
    Larry+Michael,

    I like your idea of using a heat exchanger. You could even fill it with antifreeze and steam distilled water.
    I am going to look into that. Thanks.

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    Curt Harrington

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  • 7.  RE: What hot water system works best with hard water

    Posted 02-04-2019 23:48
    Curt,

    There are experts on how he boiler water should be maintained ... I am not one of them.  Mainly attention has to be focused on the right pH.  Testing with pH tape is a close enough way.  I could be wrong but information I have seen is that the three ultra pure distilled, RO or deionized water is actually a no no for boiler piping ... because in those ultra pure states water is extra aggressive.  Not sure what happens when it is mixed with antifreeze or other fluid with proper good fitting additives etc.

    Some states require double walled everything when it comes to temperature transfer exchangers heating domestic water.
    That could be a factor in cost without enough gain in safety in the opinion of a qualified local mechanical engineer that used to help me technically.  Jeff Deal is a mechanical engineer so he tends to be more knowledgeable than me on some boiler water technicalities.

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    Michael Walsh www.kingkoin.com
    King Koin Laundry, Car n Dog Wash
    Bismarck ND
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  • 8.  RE: What hot water system works best with hard water

    Posted 02-07-2019 19:37

    Michael is right, an indirect fire boiler greatly reduces the opportunity for lime buildup on the heat exchanger.   I know of only 1 laundromat that used this type boiler.  It was HUGE by today's standards.  That was so long ago that I cannot even recall the brand name.
    Larry Adamski,  02-04-2019 09:10
    Larry, I had 2 mats years ago that had that type of boiler. They were Natco "Scotch Marine" units.....Basically a huge boiler that could heat an apartment house if sized right.
    I had one 600,000btu unit, and one 1,000,000btu unit. The big unit was as big as an SUV!
    They were extremely reliable, but not efficient by todays standards. I think they still sell them though.

    The fire gets blown into the bottom by either a gas or oil fired burner (I think some units would allow you to switch from oil to gas at will, depending on the price of oil/gas). The heat would travel horizontally and turn up to the second level where the heat would pas through about 40 tubes. The tubes would heat a big water bath on that second level. The heating coil was a big long zigzag of finned copper pipes that was constantly submerged in that water.
    There is NO direct contact with the fire and the copper heat exchanger. The water would heat the copper coils.





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    Paulie B
    Multiple Mat Owner since 1976
    New York City, NY
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  • 9.  RE: What hot water system works best with hard water

    Posted 02-07-2019 19:45
    Paulie,

    Yes, that's the unit.  If I  recall correctly,  it roared when it turned on.  Those were the days.

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    Larry Adamski
    Muskegon Laundromat
    Spring Lake MI
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  • 10.  RE: What hot water system works best with hard water

    Posted 02-06-2019 22:45
    Why don't you soften the water?  Kinetico!

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    Brian DeCoster
    Laundromania
    Iowa City IA
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  • 11.  RE: What hot water system works best with hard water

    Posted 02-07-2019 05:16
    Softening a small amount of water for a home might be ok despite the harmful effects of salt being dumped into the environment. But when I have to pay for the wasted water a softener uses that is not on the table.

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    Curt Harrington
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  • 12.  RE: What hot water system works best with hard water

    Posted 02-07-2019 16:27
    You will find the failure rate of valves, Water heaters boilers and pumps etc. will go down.
    In addition to the great effects of cleaning and reduced usage of chemicals including bleach and soap.  That Salt will go back where it came from. The entire US sits on a giant bed of salt.  The only reason the main minds are in Kansas and Utah & East coast is because those are the first places they looked for them

    Sent from my iPhone



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  • 13.  RE: What hot water system works best with hard water

    Posted 02-07-2019 17:50
    Softening water has three problems for me, although I have used it years ago.

    1) It takes up expensive floor space.
    2) It costs real money to buy the salt.
    3) It takes too much time picking up the salt and filling the tank. It's a one hour job done better by younger men.

    I'm not concerned that soft water will increase any oversoaping or that few, if any, continue to use soft water in my area or even as some suggest it is hard on the environment and sewer piping, just the three noted above.

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    Larry Larsen
    Laundromat123.com
    Anaheim, CA
    Distributor - Insurance - Consulting
    Cell: (714) 390-9969
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